Climate Shifted

Beyond Yell, Tell, Sell: Dr. Renee Lertzman on the Psychology of Climate Communication

In this episode of Climate Shifted, host Eva Frye speaks with Dr. Renee Lertzman, a pioneer in climate psychology who is transforming how we communicate about our planet's future. While most climate messaging bombards us with facts or terrifies us with doomsday scenarios, Renee's approach taps into something deeper: our human need to feel heard before we can change. Her groundbreaking work with Project Inside Out reveals why traditional "yelling, telling and selling" tactics fail so spectacularly with climate issues—they actually trigger defensiveness. Instead, Renee offers frameworks that help us become guides who create genuine dialogue rather than delivering monologues. Her approach is built on the same psychological techniques that help people overcome addiction—some of the most difficult behavior change imaginable. Whether you're an activist looking for new tools, a communicator hitting walls, or simply someone who cares and wants to share effectively, this conversation provides practical frameworks to transform how you engage with people about the climate crisis.
Transcript available here
Key Topics
Moving beyond "yell, tell, sell" approaches to climate communication
Using motivational interviewing techniques to create dialogue instead of defensiveness
The importance of acknowledging anxiety, ambivalence, and aspiration
Becoming a "guide" rather than an educator or cheerleader
Addressing polarization through empathetic listening
Creating sustainable activism campaigns that don't traumatize people
Using attunement and relational approaches even for urgent campaigns
Quotes
"Your job is to draw out from others what their concerns are, values, volition for change, and it's actually massively more impactful and effective than what I call yell, tell, and sell." - Renee Lertzman
"How to become a climate communication “guide”? The first step is to become very self-aware and with a lot of compassion, to go through a bit of an internal reflection on how am I showing up?" - Renee Lertzman
"It was crystal clear that we needed to be bridging these worlds of psychological insight with, what does it mean to actually come to terms with climate issues as well as how did we get here?" - Renee Lertzman
"It's very hard to do this work effectively unless you have a pretty high level of self-awareness." - Renee Lertzman
"A really good guide also is tuned in to how people are doing. And so, it's always a matter of balancing the 'take action now' with, 'I get it. Maybe this is upsetting to you, but we need to take action anyway.'" - Renee Lertzman
People & Organizations Mentioned
Dr. Renee Lertzman - Climate psychologist and strategic advisor
Project Inside Out - Resource platform for climate communication
Alliance for Climate Education - Organization that worked with Renee on a video about how to talk about climate change
Victor Frankl - Psychologist whose work Renee references
Dan Siegel - Neuropsychologist mentioned for "name it to tame it" concept
Barbara Ehrenreich - Author of "Nickel and Dimed"
Van Jones - Activist mentioned for his ability to bridge divides
Amy Edmondson - Harvard professor and expert on leadership development
JUICY BITS: Takeaways for Climate Communicators
Shift from educator to guide: Learn to create invitations for dialogue rather than lectures that trigger defensiveness.
Practice the three A's: Acknowledge anxiety, ambivalence, and aspiration in your audience to create deeper connection.
Use "Ask, Offer, Ask" (AOA): Start by asking about experience, offer information with permission, then ask for reflection.
Create reflective pauses: Help people find the space between stimulus and response where change can happen.
Practice "name it to tame it": Naming feelings reduces their charge and makes them more manageable.
Call to Action
Subscribe to Climate Shifted wherever you listen to podcasts
Follow @climateshifted on all social media platforms
Share this episode with friends interested in climate communication
Visit projectinsideout.net for resources on effective climate engagement
Follow Renee's work at reneelertzman.com and subscribe to her Substack "Becoming Guides"
Credits
Executive Producer & Host - Eva Frye
Technical Producer - Mateus Salgado
Adviser - Ryan Shuken
Audio engineer - Gianna Scioletti
Project management - Sarah Clayton

Creating Climate Art That Goes Viral: Benjamin Von Wong’s Cultural Hacking Playbook

In this episode of Climate Shifted, host Eva Frye speaks with Benjamin Von Wong, an environmental artist and activist who creates large-scale art installations to make climate issues accessible to wider audiences. Benjamin shares how he uses familiar cultural metaphors to draw people into climate conversations, strategically places his art to influence decision-makers, and approaches climate work from love rather than duty. Learn how his installations like the four-story "Turn Off the Plastic Tap" sculpture and "Biodiversity Jenga" use recognizable concepts to make complex environmental issues instantly understandable, and discover his insights on creating sustainable activism practices that avoid burnout.
Transcript available here
Key Topics
Using popular cultural metaphors to make climate issues more accessible
Strategic placement of art installations to influence policy decisions
Transitioning from duty-based climate work to love-based activism
Creating large-scale art that requires no words to explain
Building relationships instead of chasing social media algorithms
Developing sustainable activism practices to avoid burnout
Using art as a "top of funnel" to draw new people into climate conversations
Quotes
"I try to think of popular metaphors or popular cultural tropes that I can hijack." - Benjamin Von Wong
"Coming at things from a place of love, it's almost like a privilege to be able to show up and to offer yourself in the fullest most complete way." - Benjamin Von Wong
"My role is to simply provide a piece of art that is as universal as possible that any organization or even a company or a government, regardless of where they are on the journey, can find utility in what I'm creating." - Benjamin Von Wong
"The ultimate goal of mine is to be able to constantly create work that requires no words to explain." - Benjamin Von Wong
"As climate professionals, we spend a lot of time thinking about regeneration and sustainability for the outside world. I think we also need to put up a mirror every so often and think about how are we making our work and career path sustainable and regenerative." - Benjamin Von Wong
People & Organizations Mentioned
Benjamin Von Wong - Environmental artist and activist
United Nations Environmental Assembly - Venue for the "Turn Off the Plastic Tap" installation
Sir David Attenborough - Mentioned as an influential environmentalist
Notable Art Installations Discussed
Turn Off the Plastic Tap: A four-story tall sculpture resembling a faucet spewing plastic trash, installed at the United Nations Environmental Assembly where delegates were voting on plastic treaties. The installation gave physical form to the phrase "turning off the plastic tap" used in negotiations.
Biodiversity Jenga: A two-and-a-half story tall Jenga tower where each block represents a different ecosystem, demonstrating how removing elements of biodiversity could lead to collapse. Created with 200 students who made 150 animal figures to populate the installation.
Straw-pocalypse: An installation made of 168,000 plastic straws, illustrating what happens when we pour plastics into the ocean.
Mermaid on Plastic Bottles: An installation featuring a mermaid on 10,000 plastic bottles to raise awareness about plastic pollution.
JUICY BITS: Takeaways for Climate Communicators
Make it irresistible: Create environmental messaging that invites curiosity instead of hitting people over the head with information.
Approach climate work from love, not duty: When you connect with what you're protecting and approach climate work from love rather than obligation, activism becomes sustaining rather than draining.
Use familiar metaphors: Leverage recognizable concepts (like Jenga) as shortcuts to make complex problems instantly understandable - the art should require no words to explain.
Think ecosystem, not individual: Remember that your work is part of a broader ecosystem of solutions. Focus on the role you can play rather than trying to solve everything yourself.
Distribution matters: Package your work so it's easy for journalists and organizations to share with their followers, ensuring the right eyes see your work without relying on fickle algorithms.
Call to Action
Subscribe to Climate Shifted wherever you listen to podcasts
Follow @climateshifted on all social media platforms
Share this episode with friends interested in climate communication
Check out Benjamin Von Wong's work at unforgettablelabs.com or by searching "Von Wong" online
RSVP for the Climate Shifted launch party "Resilience: Stories of Renewal" on April 25th at KALW Radio Station in San Francisco at climateshifted.com or https://lu.ma/ok1v6rxd
Credits
Executive Producer & Host - Eva Frye
Technical Producer - Mateus Salgado
Adviser - Ryan Shuken
Audio engineer - Gianna Scioletti
Project management - Sarah Clayton

The Art of Climate Propaganda: Flipping the Script with Julie Mallat

In this episode of Climate Shifted, host Eva Frye speaks with Julie Mallat, founder of The Climate Propagandist. Julie shares how she studies propaganda and persuasion techniques to help climate advocates craft more compelling messages that stick and spread. Learn how big oil has weaponized propaganda for decades and how we can flip their tactics to drive climate action. Explore what makes messages stick, Michael Mann's 5Ds framework for understanding corporate delay tactics, and why hope might be the biggest threat to polluting industries.
Transcript available 
Key Topics
How propaganda techniques can be used for positive climate communication
The evolution of fossil fuel industry propaganda tactics
Michael Mann's 5Ds framework to understand fossil fuel’s climate delay: Deflection, Delay, Division, Despair, and Doomism
What makes messages stick and spread in the digital age
How to measure impact in culture-based climate action
Strategies for climate communicators to build effective campaigns
Quotes
"We're not just in a battle of science, we're in a battle of narratives." - Julie Mallat
"Climate communication doesn't have to be boring or academic. It can be engaging, impactful. It can be easy to digest." - Julie Mallat
"Hope is actually a direct threat to their agenda." - Julie Mallat
People & Organizations Mentioned
Julie Mallat - Founder of The Climate Propagandist 
Michael Mann - Scientist who developed the 5Ds framework of climate delay tactics
Adrienne Maree Brown - Author mentioned regarding pleasure activism
Notable Ads & Campaigns Discussed
Energy Transfer Hospital Ad: A controversial commercial showing a couple rushing to a hospital for childbirth, only to find it dark and empty, implying that ending fossil fuel use would lead to healthcare system failures. This exemplifies fear-based propaganda designed to convince the public that transitioning away from fossil fuels would be catastrophic. Watch here
Parents for Future Campaign: An impactful campaign where British parents casually apologize for small daily mistakes before a mother looks at her baby and apologizes while climate disasters play out on TV. This campaign effectively leverages the "good ancestor frame," making people feel responsible for future generations.  Watch here
Clean Creatives Campaign: Organization behind campaign calling out agencies working with fossil fuel clients. Read here
Audio quotes
President public quotes - DMW, WSJ
"I Have a dream" public speech by MLK, YT
JUICY BITS: Takeaways for Climate Communicators
Think like a propagandist - Use the "stick and spread" method to craft narratives that both stick in people's minds and spread through populations.
Use culture as a vehicle - Don't just inform people, but change what's considered normal to make sustainability mainstream.
Be bold and subversive - The climate crisis is urgent, and communication tactics should reflect that urgency by challenging norms.
Call to Action
Subscribe to Climate Shifted wherever you listen to podcasts
Follow @climateshifted and @thewclimatepropagandist on all social media platforms, and on Substack
Share this episode with friends interested in climate communication
Credits
Executive Producer & Host - Eva Frye
Technical Producer - Mateus Salgado
Adviser - Ryan Shuken
Project management - Sarah Clayton

Climate Shifted Trailer

Podcast where psychologists, behavior designers, artivists & movement builders share how to shift perception for climate action.
Featuring guests like Dr. Renee Lertzman, Xavier Cortada, Melinda Briana Epler, Autumn Leiker, Benjamin Von Wong, and more.
Credits
Executive Producer & Host - Eva Frye
Technical Producer - Mateus Salgado
Sources
George Marshall on The Naked Scientists
Dr. Renee Lertzman on TWM#61 videocast by Dr Matthew Goodman
Adrienne Maree Brown on Laura Flanders & Friends